Photo 'Stella' Brum 1947

[Chris93940]

sh

These photos are in 'Birmingham in the Fifties Vol 2'
See www.altondouglas.co.uk

[Batman]

Hi"Chris93940, The photo of Gough Rd, I have a strong feeling that the clothes shop was later turned into a small cafe, which was on the corner of Gough Rd and Sun St, ( at the bottom of Sun St was the Bristol Rd, ), but I dont remember the pub, maybe it was pulled down when they built the Lee bank school,...John 2000

[Chris93940]

john2000

Looking closely at the photo, the pub was the 'Gough Arms' (Ansells)

[sh]

Chris93940 -

Thanks a bunch for the info; the photos are nice, and they're from a different era, really.

It doesn't much look like a wealthy area; perhaps when time passes so does the area.  Perhaps I'm in error.

I looked at a 1861 Census for Keturah, Wm's widow, and she lived at 131 Spring Street.  Also, she made her living from her properties; Wm was a broker, so they no doubt had rentals or something of that nature.  Keturah also had a servant.  Apparently, Wm died in 1850.

I really like learning about my ancestors; I like the history of the area, of them, etc.

Blessings, sh

[sh]

Now, I'm wondering what a "cottage" would be.  The same as a regular house?

Were the houses all attached or were they separate back in 1841 - 1861?

Any way of learning how many bedrooms, etc.?

Thanks, sh

[Batman]

sh, From the photos that Chris put up, I would think the houses in Spring St were two up and two down and with an out side WC, the houses in Sun St next to the Gough Arms, ( if it is Sun St,) had two up plus an attic ( loft) and 2 down and most likely again with an out side WC, ( I lived with an aunt for a time in a house that had two and one down and an outside toilet.) and we had army blankets for the bed which had pockets in them..I would think that the family you're looking for own the property but if they had a maid, then I'm sure they lived maybe in Spring Road, ( close by), in Spring Road there where large,nice houses and with a house Nr;131 I'm sure it would be in that road, because it was along road, almost parall to Gough Rd,as you Will see from the map.
the houses were of high standing, as I said with a small garden in the front, and a long garden at the rear. even back in the sixties they started to turn a lot of them into apartments'
Sorry to put a damper on your sherch but as you know looking for family the route has many dead end streets, but slowly you will find what youre looking for.....John 2000 

[Batman]

Chris 93940, The clothes shop I think later became a small cafe, run by a very large lady with two beautiful daughters, ( now you know how I know )  , but its the pub that gets me I cant place it anywhere and looking at the photo, I'm quite sure in was on the corner, but which corner ?, 

[sh]

sh, From the photos that Chris put up, I would think the houses in Spring St were two up and two down and with an out side WC, the houses in Sun St next to the Gough Arms, ( if it is Sun St,) had two up plus an attic ( loft) and 2 down and most likely again with an out side WC, ( I lived with an aunt for a time in a house that had two and one down and an outside toilet.) and we had army blankets for the bed which had pockets in them..I would think that the family you're looking for own the property but if they had a maid, then I'm sure they lived maybe in Spring Road, ( close by), in Spring Road there where large,nice houses and with a house Nr;131 I'm sure it would be in that road, because it was along road, almost parall to Gough Rd,as you Will see from the map.
the houses were of high standing, as I said with a small garden in the front, and a long garden at the rear. even back in the sixties they started to turn a lot of them into apartments'
Sorry to put a damper on your sherch but as you know looking for family the route has many dead end streets, but slowly you will find what youre looking for.....John 2000 

__________________________________________________________________

John2000 -

"sh 
The numbers you gave me are correct.
I've had a look and I'm sure it's Spring Field Cottage.
Also in the street are :
Spring Vale Cottage
Union Place
Edgbaston cottage
Seacombe Place

They sound charming!"

Above, is what Chris93940 entered; he looked up the folio number, etc.

The 1841 Census only states, "Spring Field Cottage"  (well, it's hard to read the writing, but I think that's what it states).  Later, in the 1861 Census, Keturah is widowed, and she lives at 131 Spring Street.  She has a "servant"; she is alone save for the servant, and I don't know if she was ill or not.  Apparently, she had the money to have a servant.  Wm. was a broker.

In 1851, Keturah lived at 100 Spring Street with a young girl - "Caroline Ellis"  (and there's importance in her last name which I'll tell you later) at age 16; and in 1861, Keturah lived at 131 Spring Street with a Sarah Goodson, servant; Keturah earned her living from properties. (This is stated above, herein.)

So, I know she lived on Spring Street.  I'm assuming John2000 truly looked my reference up.

So, I feel these photos taken 100 years later show the wear and tear of the area.

Also, I'm wondering what "WC" is:  Water Closet?

If these houses are two up and two down, does that mean rooms or bedrooms?  I know I ask a lot of questions; I also know that my sister will be drilling me on specifics; and, I'd really like to know for myself as I form concepts to envision something I cannot otherwise, "see".

Please do let me know.  Many thanks, sh

[Batman]

Hi"sh, Yes, the term "WC"means toilet, ( or bathroom) lavatory taken from the French word "lave"meaning to wash,
The meaning of two up and two down means two up ( two bedrooms) two down means two living areas downstairs,
Spring Street, the houses where all joined together, in one long block, you can see from the photos from Chris, that I mean, they where/are slum type houses, there where also houses that were in blocks in Spring Road, but they where much larger, and I'm sure that theses did have indoor toilets, with a bathroom, these where of a higher standard, with three up and three down, remember that Spring Road is on a hill, the bottom of the hill was Spring Street, which crossed over Sun Street, then the name changed to Spring Road, now to wards the top end of Spring Road, you come onto Wellington Road, I am sure that your family lived at the top end of Spring Road, ( because the houses where of a higher standard, and had place for a maid, the houses on the Wellington Road where large and free standing,) now if some kind person could find the time to pop over and take some photos of the area as it is now, I'm sure they will find house NR: 131.
but not having been in the area for a long time, maybe its all gone, but I don't think the houses in Wellington Rd have been changed, ( they where too nice ),but saying that, I remember the beautiful Georgian muse houses close by, they where pulled down to make way for other types of dwellings.
If you look on the old map that Chris sent you I'm sure see what I mean, like in Gough Rd, the bottom part had long block type houses, and to wards the top end had very nice upper class, free standing houses,
The area is on top of a hill, Wellington Rd, Top end of Spring Road, and the top end of Gough Road, were all close to each other, this was an affluent area, ( grass)
Please note at a lot of time the people who did the census, made small errors, so maybe your lot lived in Spring Road and the houses they owned where in Spring Street and other areas....... John 2000

[sh]

John2000 -

I'm beginning to think that you are correct on all counts;  the "Cottage" I mentioned earlier is NOT on a road; it simple states the name, and perhaps at the time that was quite enough to be said within the specific location.

The other Census (1851 and 1861) decidedly states Spring St. (inless I misread them); I very much agree that small (or large) errors are made from time to time;  I can attest to that having researched for almost two years now.  While the Census are difficult to read, and names are often misspelled, I can only imagine other errors being made.

That said, I am enormously grateful for your assistance; wouldn't it be nice if the dwellings were still standing?  Someone offered that they weren't, but who knows?  if there's errors on the Census (and we all know they do exist), then these places might still ber standing.

And, I agree, that since Keturah had a servant (word on Census), and that she had property income - and that her husband was a broker  (and on that Census listing his neighbors were engineers, etc.) they probably were well to do.  Most of the Ashforths in our family were.  Not wealthy, but prosperous.  They were also thrifty - but then it was a sign of the times.  (Certainly not like today - charge everything.)

I'm really happy to know all of this information. If you find more, please do let me know.

I now have a listing of the children of Wm. and Keturah.  I'm excited.

Blessings, sh

[sh]

I mentioned earlier about, "Caroline Ellis", living with Keturah after she was widowed; and that I'd state why the name, "Ellis" was important.

Back in 1750 - probably to 1800 or lesser - one of George Ashforth's partners last name was Ellis.

George Ashforth, according to my mother's writings was a member of our family.  My hope is to link up my research with him, and I'm almost there.

George was a master silversmith, had 3 business and 3 registrations (registered silversmith).  I have a writing on him and his partner, Ellis.  Too much to explain, but wouldn't it be wonderful if the young Caroline Ellis, was a relative of George's partner?  Amazing stuff.

Quite a few Ashforth silversmiths in our family, including my maternal grandfather.....of course they all were from England. 

Amazing stuff.  sh

 I love it.  sh