Author Topic: Time for a debate  (Read 2676 times)

spyro2000

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Time for a debate
« on: December 20, 2006, 09:22:38 PM »
This place could really do with a General discussion section :D , but anyway...


Views on the death penalty and bringing it back into the country.

Yes, no  3 bags full?

Discuss

Thank you please
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Graham

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Re: Time for a debate
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2006, 10:16:13 PM »
By all means bring it back, if it solves the crime rate  ???

spyro2000

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Re: Time for a debate
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2006, 03:26:56 AM »
By all means bring it back, if it solves the crime rate  ???

I dont think it will solve the crime rate personally myself.

Also there are 3 key reasons why I dont agree with teh death penalty

1) It will create a higher cost to the tax payer for each execution
2) Innocent people may be killed
3) Its hypocritical to say its wrong to kil yet kill people legally.
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Boomer

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Re: Time for a debate
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2006, 05:34:03 AM »
Spyro:
In response to your points above:
(1) I don't see how an execution is more expensive than maintaining a criminal in prison, sometimes for decades.  Even if it were more expensive to execute than to maintain a prisoner, the issue is not money but justice.  The real question concerns what the criminal deserves rather than how much it will cost.  No nationis well advised to put money above justice.  In moral questions like this one, it seems that justice is properly fundamental.

2).  I think you are absolutely correct that innocent people wil be executed, and if justice is paramount, as I think it ought to be, then this is a serious failure.  No nation's penal system is perfect.  And if it is not perfect, then serious mistakes of this sort will happen.  If a prisoner is incarcerated unjustly, he can be released and in some way compensated for the injustice.  But if he is dead, nothing can be done to right the wrong.  On the other hand, if murderers are not executed, they might well murder again, whether in the nation at large, if released, or in prison, if still a prisoner.  In that case, innocent persons are still dead, and that does not serve the cause of justice.

3.  The issue is not killing but murder.  That is, while all murder is killing, not all killing is murder.  Murder is unjustified killing.  If someone has committed a capital offense and deserves to die, that is not the same as executing a murderer.  In other words, your point 3 equivocates on the word "kill" in much the same way I would be equivocating on the word "push" if I said that a man who pushes an elderly woman into the path of a car and a man who pushes an elderly woman out of th epath of a car are the same becuase they both push elderly women.

Thanks for starting a very important and interesting discussion.


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Boomer

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Re: Time for a debate
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2006, 05:40:42 AM »
Let me re-state my number 3, which was badly written:
To murder an innocent person is not the same as to execute a murderer.  The former is unjust; the latter is not, even though in both cases someone dies.

Sorry for the confusion and exasperation the final paragraph of my previous post must have caused.
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John_Lerwill

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Re: Time for a debate
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2006, 01:09:48 PM »
...

2).  I think you are absolutely correct that innocent people wil be executed, and if justice is paramount, as I think it ought to be, then this is a serious failure.  No nation's penal system is perfect.  And if it is not perfect, then serious mistakes of this sort will happen.  If a prisoner is incarcerated unjustly, he can be released and in some way compensated for the injustice.  But if he is dead, nothing can be done to right the wrong.  ...

This is the most profound and important issue, I suggest. It's not only that wrong executions "will" be done, but that they have already been done and pardons were issued years after they were executed.

And executions in this country is one thing, but the American system (where it exists) is (to me) vile, and if executions were re-introduced in this country, who is to say that the situation would not exist where a condemned person is kept on execution row for many years while appeal after appeal takes place, and then finally executed? Also, there was a very recent case in the States of a condemened man being given a so-called fatal injection, only for it not to take effect, and he had to be given a second injection.

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Thanks for starting a very important and interesting discussion.

Yes, it is an important question, as are all issues about human values. I'm wondering, however, why Spyro brought up this question just now...?
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roy one

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Re: Time for a debate
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2006, 07:48:45 PM »
i think i read some where ,eye for eye not sure the cost to the tax payer  well you could hang um out side in the bull ring charge a fiver
or you could put um in the stocks and let folk sling stuff at um or you could boil them in oil or you could hang um them cut um up  or you could hang um from the lamp post on the way in to brum oppps sorry i forgot it 2006 not 1506 silly me   i think life should be life
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spyro2000

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Re: Time for a debate
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2006, 01:51:52 PM »
I agree with Roy that life should mean life. this also means that if there is a chance of innocence then they still have their life. Yes it may be ruined, but at least they would have the chance to try and rebuild it should they be found innocent.

Not too keen on hanging them outside the bullring though lol, well at least not till after ive done my christmas shopping  :P

As for the cost. It certainly does cost more, ive jsut googled for the costs and found an 'example' of this.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7
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roy one

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Re: Time for a debate
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2006, 02:43:13 PM »
most of us in the uk think that life should mean life and yes in the past folk have been hung and after they have been given a parden but it depends how you look at things  now ask your self this if some one took your kid and done them in and it was up to you if they hung or not i think that 9 out of 10 would say hang the ba...d he took my kids life we have got to live with it for the rest of our lives but by hanging him or her your putting them out of it but keeping them in nick till they die each day it would remind them why but to let them out makes your kids life worth less
each day is a blessing and I bless each day when it comes

Boomer

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Re: Time for a debate
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2006, 06:46:47 PM »
Spyro,
Many thanks for the useful and informative link spelling out the death penalty costs.  Well done.
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John_Lerwill

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Re: Time for a debate
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2006, 06:47:12 PM »
most of us in the uk think that life should mean life and yes in the past folk have been hung and after they have been given a parden but it depends how you look at things  now ask your self this if some one took your kid and done them in and it was up to you if they hung or not i think that 9 out of 10 would say hang the ba...d he took my kids life we have got to live with it for the rest of our lives but by hanging him or her your putting them out of it but keeping them in nick till they die each day it would remind them why but to let them out makes your kids life worth less

You're going to love me with this reply, Roy...  ;)

Let's look at the (much) bigger picture. If reincarnation is a fact - and I believe it is - then again we come back to the big 'why' are we all here, and what we're supposed to be doing to get out of the 'wheel of life'. They (Jesus, Buddha, Krishna and all), say that our task is to learn forgiveness and to recognise that it's not the body that's the permanent thing - the real self lives forever.

Why forgiveness? To enable the real self to fulfill itself according to predefined laws of the universe, that's why. Forgiveness not just in this extreme situation, but also in any other situation where someone harms another, physically or psychologically. Through seeing the forgiveness of the hurt party, then the aggressor eventually becomes changed also.

So executing someone for murder really does not solve anything.
We are all ONE - despite appearances!