Author Topic: Saddam  (Read 3805 times)

Graham

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Re: Saddam
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2007, 12:07:48 AM »
Instead of worrying about why, has anyone thought about it that they may have deliberately strung him up on a Holy day to stir-it-up a bit  ???

spyro2000

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Re: Saddam
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2007, 12:09:16 AM »
Instead of worrying about why, has anyone thought about it that they may have deliberately strung him up on a Holy day to stir-it-up a bit  ???

That is exactly my view on the situation
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John_Lerwill

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Re: Saddam
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2007, 12:17:59 AM »
That suggestion is completely lost on me!!!  :o

What would such an approach gain anyone? "They" you speak of are the Iraqi authorities themselves. Unless they were under pressure from the Yanks to do that, I don't think they would have gone down that route.
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roy one

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Re: Saddam
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2007, 12:38:14 AM »
yes that helps me understand alot why they go round killing each other they are not of the same mind so if they never sort it out the killing will go on and on never ending well that seems an odd way to love your brother jl so if your one kind of Muslim and the chap down the road is a diffrent kind of Muslim its ok to kill him do they not have the same book and if so does it not say you must not kill or does one book say if your mate down the road does not think like you you must kill him and one book say you must not kill it sounds a mix up to me jl can they not get together and sort it out and live in peace and understanding of the diffrent part of there faith so when the yanks and the brits move out of iraq will there not be a blood bath or will they sort  it out and live happy together well i think my way is the best not being in to the god thing i do not care one bit what the chap down the road thinks about his god or believe in god if it come to that all i care about is if he needs my help he can have it if i need his help ill get it but thank you jr for your help iv found out what i need to know
each day is a blessing and I bless each day when it comes

John_Lerwill

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Re: Saddam
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2007, 11:11:27 AM »
yes that helps me understand alot why they go round killing each other they are not of the same mind so if they never sort it out the killing will go on and on never ending well that seems an odd way to love your brother jl ... i do not care one bit what the chap down the road thinks about his god or believe in god if it come to that all i care about is if he needs my help he can have it if i need his help ill get it but thank you jr for your help iv found out what i need to know

No probs, Roy - I'm sure there is a lot I could learn from you from your experiences.

I like your attitude - what you said sums up what any religious faith should be about, in theory and practise.
We are all ONE - despite appearances!

roy one

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Re: Saddam
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2007, 12:31:19 PM »
Webi note with intrest the bit that you made the quote on left out the words muslim blood bath and  the same book im still lost on that jl do they have a diffrent book on there god or the same book iv had a look at your webb page and i think that you might know because you are or was a Muslim and if your are a Muslim what kind are you thinking about that jl it might not be good for you to say you might be the wrong kind of Muslim
each day is a blessing and I bless each day when it comes

John_Lerwill

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Re: Saddam
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2007, 01:24:03 PM »
 :D you crafty monkey, Roy! Having a peek on my website, eh?!  ;)

My interest in Islam - and my entering 'the fold', so to speak - was because I found out about the Sufis (whom I mentioned earlier) who try to live by the meaning of the Qur'an. After 2 or 3 years theoretical reading, I then became and remained a formal Muslim for around 7 years and came to get my knowledge about all the main sects as a result. Since then (since ca. 1985), I went away from religious teachings, but some experiences brought me back, but this time to learn about the Gnostics of early Christianity and Vedanta (the basis of Buddhism and the Hindu faith).

In response to your question about "a different book" in Islam. To answer that I have to elaborate a bit more on the difference between the Sunnis and the Shia.

All Muslims profess belief in Allah, Prophet Muhammed and the Qur'an. Therefore they all take the Qur'an as being the central book. HOWEVER, the Sunnis have always preferred the external practises of Islam and they take their line of understanding according to 4 theologians of the Middle Ages - Hanafi, Hanbali, Shafi and Muslim - who expounded the external faith of Islam according to the practises of the Prophet - how he prayed, ate, greeted people etc. etc. The written doctrines of these theologians differ only in small details. The Shia, on the other hand, allege that they were told by the Prophet that his son-in-law, 'Ali, was to be his heir, and that interpretation (ta'wil) of the Qur'an should come from him and his progeny. The Sunnis (the majority) did not listen to the Prophet's bequest and instead elected three other leaders (Kalifs) in succession, until 'Ali finally became leader of the Muslims. He was assassinated. And then there was the slaughter at Kerbala that I spoke of earlier.

So the main difference between Sunnis and Shia is that although they all accept the Qur'an, the Sunnis go by the words of the theologians who laid down what they understood to be the practises of the Prophet, and the Shia go by the word of the prophet's son-in-law ('Ali) and his progeny, who are supposed to interpret the Qur'an according to the times. The Isma'ili Shias, who have the Aga Khan as their leader, are the only group of Shia who follow a living descendant of 'Ali, and he interprets the Qur'an according to the times, as was intended (according to the Shia). The Shia of Iran and Iraq still follow doctrines laid down by the last of their leaders, who disappeared hundreds of years ago, and who are therefore still rooted in the Middle Ages, as are the Sunnis.

Effectively, only the Sufis and the Ismai'li Shias have an accurate understanding of Islam, as I understand it. There are imams (religious leaders) of the Sunnis who are reasonable.

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roy one

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Re: Saddam
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2007, 01:49:38 PM »
thank you jl but i still do not know if the book is the same for all Muslims a yes or a no would help me i was chatting to an  mp not so long ago and i could not get a yes or a no from him  so i ask you jl iv almost found out what i need to know so a yes or no would put an end to it so that there is no misunderstanding do Muslims have the same book of there god
each day is a blessing and I bless each day when it comes

John_Lerwill

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Re: Saddam
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2007, 02:56:02 PM »
The answer is YES, Roy, their book is the same.  :) But a simple YES/NO does not answer the question properly to understand why the two main sects understand it differently.

Their religion is modified according to who interprets what from the Qur'an. That's what I think I said, and that is what is the case.

PLEASE NOTE : The Qur'an (it is said) has up to 7 levels of understanding - so you can see why there is a need for interpretation. Ordinary people cannot read it and understand it without guidance, even though they think they can.
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roy one

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Re: Saddam
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2007, 04:36:03 PM »
thank you jl  now you have made it clear to me that they all have the same book so what your saying to me is they use the book and its rules to suit themselfs if they can make it fit there needs then they will do just that   its not the book its the men that use the book to live there life by i will  look upon them in a diffrent light now thank you jl i o u  one for that  one might say iv seen the light by a man who knows  ill now put it to bed
each day is a blessing and I bless each day when it comes

John_Lerwill

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Re: Saddam
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2007, 05:17:42 PM »
thank you jl  now you have made it clear to me that they all have the same book so what your saying to me is they use the book and its rules to suit themselfs if they can make it fit there needs then they will do just that 

Yes. It's no different to anything else, isn't it? People will have different views on the world depending on how they see things.

But the worst malefactors in the interpretation of the Qur'an are those who are the literalists. There are a number of cases in that book where God guides Muhammed to do certain things - but these are injunctions based on the circumstances at the time; they're not supposed to be taken as laws to apply to everyone under all situations.

Only the best of Islamic leaders and teachers have understood that.

Quote
 its not the book its the men that use the book to live there life by i will  look upon them in a diffrent light now thank you jl i o u  one for that  one might say iv seen the light by a man who knows  ill now put it to bed

Cheers Roy.
We are all ONE - despite appearances!